Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Oil for Older Cars


St.Thomas On Rod-side member

Status: Offline
Posts: 495
Date:
Oil for Older Cars
Permalink  
 


Was just on another site, where there was a discussion about Rotella motor oil. I'm understanding that it still has zinc added, although in smaller quantities than it used to be. Figured  this would be beneficial for my 352 FE engine. True or false??  



__________________

if you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk.



"Fatchuk" Rod-side member Board administration & clean up guy

Status: Offline
Posts: 1786
Date:
Permalink  
 

The Truth About Zinc & Motor Oil

While you may think the whole Zinc issue has been beaten like a dead horse, the reality is that very few people actually understand what has changed in motor oils over the last decade. The real problem lies in the fact that these same people are the ones who stand to suffer from these changes. Typically, the average hot rodder or racer knows the least about the motor oil going into that very expensive engine.

While many professional engine builders know that motor oils have changed, many of them would not know the difference between ZDTP and ZDDP.

What’s that you ask? Isn’t all Zinc the same? Let’s get the facts straight about Zinc.

When we talk about “Zinc” in motor oils, what we are really talking about is a family of additives called Zinc DiakylDithioPhosphates – better known as ZDDP.

Many different types of ZDDP additives exist – Primary, Secondary, and Ary. These different types of Zinc have different activation thresholds. You see, Zinc is not a lubricant until the ZDDP reacts under heat and load to create a phosphate glass film that protects the metal surface.

This is critical to protection.

Zinc needs heat and load for it to activate and then lubricate the surface. Some types of Zinc activate faster under less heat and less load than other types of Zinc. These “fast burn” Zinc additives provide better protection during engine break-in because they react faster and establish that protective Phosphate glass coating quickly during the critical break-in phase.

All types of ZDDP function in the same manner. Zinc is a polar molecule, so it is attracted to steel surfaces. Under heat and load, the Zinc reacts with the steel surface and creates a phosphate glass film that protects the steel surface by forming a sacrificial film that covers the peaks and fills in the valleys of the steel surface.

How much heat and how much load is required to activate the Zinc depends on the type of Zinc in your oil. Secondary ZDP is the most active type of Zinc, but it is also blamed for reducing catalytic converter life. Newer, less active ZDPs are being used in the API SN and GM dexos 1 oil specification in order to meet increased demands on catalytic converter life. This means the type of zinc used in your favorite brand of oil may have changed, if you are still buying oil for you hot rod at the big box retail store.

This new, less active Zinc was introduced in 2010 for the 2011 model year cars and trucks.

Are you ready for some good news? The key to how much and what type of Zinc your engine needs depends on your engine’s valve train. If you have a stock valve train and no other performance modifications, then an API licensed oil is all you need. Every API licensed oil will protect stock engines under normal street driving cycles.

When you start making performance modifications or begin racing, everything changes.

Higher lift cams with longer durations and greater spring pressures need a faster response from the Zinc. Oil development in race engines shows that faster acting ZDTP does a better job protecting highly loaded valve trains. Basically, the Zinc package needs to be optimized for the application, and this is where the confusion happens.

Many people have had good success with premium API licensed products in stock engine applications (as well they should). However, this can create a false perception that API licensed oils should work in every application, but this is simply not the case. When you go beyond normal valve lift, operating temperatures and cylinder pressures, the oil formula needs to adapt to these “new” requirements.

Because the modifications fall outside the OEM guidelines used by the API to determine oil performance specifications, an API performance level does not apply. This leaves the consumer in the dark. If that knowledge leaves you feeling less than confident, then you may not want to learn about detergents and dispersant additives in motor oil that actually compete against the Zinc in your engine.

That’s right. Zinc is not alone in your motor oil. Several other additives like detergents, dispersants, viscosity index improvers, and others all compete against the Zinc inside your engine – sometimes with negative consequences.

Back in August of 2005 (less than a year after API SM was introduced), the Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers published a story stating that calcium-based detergents and dispersants competed against the ZDDP for surface space, and that caused some wear issues in passenger car engines. Around this same time many engine builders began to experience a rash of flat tappet cam failures during break-in.

The level of ZDDP had also been reduced in the API SM oil spec, and along with the increased use of calcium detergents and dispersants, the critical balance had shifted. The results were nearly catastrophic for independent engine builders and camshaft manufacturers. The rate of flat tappet cam failures escalated at an alarming rate.

The decrease in ZDDP from 1,000 ppm down to 800 ppm was called out as the cause for the rash of cam failures. This failed to take into account the change in ZDDP to detergent balance. Many engine builders switched to diesel oils that contained higher levels of ZDDP, and that worked sufficiently until the diesel oils underwent a reduction in ZDDP down to 1,200 ppm in October of 2006. By the end of 2007, engine builders were again on hunt for a higher Zinc solution. This time, many switched to properly formulated break-in oils high in ZDDP and low in detergent. Some still held onto the diesel oils, but also added an off-the-shelf ZDDP supplement.

This supplement is a step in the right direction, but it still fails to address the abundance of detergent during break-in. Plus, who knows what type of ZDDP you are adding. Is it fast burn or slow burn ZDDP?

Having the right balance of additives is the key to application-specific protection and performance.

Here are the facts as they relate to off the shelf motor oils:

-Prior to 1993, the ZDDP content of motor oil was not limited.

-By 1996, the ZDDP content was limited to 1,000 ppm, but no cam failures due to that level of ZDDP were reported.

-By 2004, the ZDDP level was down to 800 ppm in API SM licensed oils. This was mandatory for API licensed oils that were SAE 10W-30 or less. Diesel oils are typically 10W-40 or higher, so these viscosity grades can contain up to 1200 ppm ZDDP in accordance with the API CJ-4 Diesel engine oil standard. However, all of these oils have had increased levels of detergents and dispersants since the late 1990s. This allows for longer drain intervals and helps to keep engines cleaner when they are forced to use exhaust gas recirculation to limit emissions.

All of these changes make sense in the context of modern passenger cars and fleet diesel engines. The problem lies in using these products in applications that they were not designed nr intended for, e.g. racing, track days and hot rodding.

A proper race oil should be designed to protect under extremely intense conditions, and then changed on a regular basis. Good racing oils allow the user to change the oil filter after each weekend event and add fresh oil and a filter as long as the oil still looks to be in good condition. As soon as the oil shows signs of darkening it should be changed.

A proper hot rod oil can go all year long (up to 3000 miles) before needing to be changed. Also, a hot rod oil is designed to protect in the garage as well as on the track. Many hot rods are not daily drivers, so they see extended periods of storage. A good hot rod oil provides storage protection as well as wear protection.

Again, back to that word – balance.

There is a lot of hype over a lot of products, but only one real truth – proper balance is what makes an oil right for an application.

Using Unmatched Lubricants – Additive Clash:

chart_additiveclash

 

 

 

A perfect example of proper balance can be seen is an API SN motor oil. While this spec oil is limited to 800 ppm of a catalytic converter friendly ZDDP, an API SN oil can break in a flat tappet camshaft. The flat tappet cam in question has less than .400 valve lift and no more than 215 psi valve spring pressure. So an API SN oil will protect a flat tappet cam, but you won’t see success trying to break in a Big Block Chevy cam with over .500 valve lift and over 300 psi valve spring pressure with an API SN oil. It is the different demands of the valve train loads that dictate what balance is required to protect.

The bottom line is that bigger lift, longer duration cams with more spring pressure need a proper break-in oil to establish that critical anti-wear film. After break-in, a hot rod-style oil for street/strip should be used to maintain that protective Zinc film.  Race applications meanwhile need a proper racing oil to deliver race-specific performance.

A stock V8 may look very similar to a hot rod V8 or a racing V8, but in reality each of these applications needs a different balance to provide the proper protection for the investment.

The good news is that specialty oils are now available that provide the application- specific protection performance engines need, letting you choose the correct oil for  your engine every time.

Using the Driven Racing Oil System:

Driven Racing Oil Engine Assembly Grease places “Fast Burn” anti-wear additives on the critical wear surfaces of your engine, and the Driven BR Break-In Oil provides the correct balance of “Fast Burn” Zinc additives and low levels of detergents to quickly establish a sacrificial anti-wear film throughout your engine. Rapidly establishing this anti-wear film in your engine provides a lower wear break-in and extends engine parts life.

For example, using the system of Engine Assembly Grease followed by the BR Break-In oil and then using XP1 Synthetic Racing Oil, allowed Joe Gibbs Racing to double flat-tappet lifter life from 600 miles to 1200 miles!

Driven Assembly Grease followed by Break-In Oil and then Synthetic Racing Oil or Hot Rod Oil like the primer, sealer and base color of automotive paint. It really does make a difference when you apply the right products for the job in the correct order!

Regardless of the lubricants you use, it is of vital importance that you properly prime the oiling system before starting a new or re-built engine. Please follow your camshaft manufacturers’ break-in procedure for flat-tappet camshafts.



__________________

There is no elevator to success — you have to take the stairs. 

 

 



"Fatchuk" Rod-side member Board administration & clean up guy

Status: Offline
Posts: 1786
Date:
Permalink  
 

Shell Rotella T

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Jump to: navigation, search

Shell Rotella T is a line of heavy duty engine lubrication products produced by Shell Oil Company. The line includes engine oils, gear oils and coolants. The oil carries both the American Petroleum Institute (API) diesel "C" rating as well as the API gasoline engine "S" rating. Ratings differ based on the oil. Rotella oils like T3 15w-40 meets both the API CJ-4 and SM specifications, and may be used in both gasoline and diesel engines. However, it is formulated specifically for vehicles without catalytic converters, containing phosphorus levels beyond the 600-800ppm range.[1] Therefore, Rotella is not recommended for gasoline vehicles with catalytic converters due to the higher risk of damaging these emission controls.[2] Newer formulations of Rotella T6 however are API SM rated as safe for pre-2011 gasoline vehicles.

Shell is marketing their new CJ-4/SM oil as "Triple Protection," meaning it provides enhanced qualities for engine wear, soot control and engine cleanliness. Shell's Rotella website indicates that on-road testing confirms the new Triple Protection technology produces better anti-wear characteristics than their existing CI-4+ rated Rotella oil. This is achieved despite a lower zinc and phosphorus additive level as called for by the API CJ-4 specification. (The 15W-40 Rotella T with Triple Protection oil has approximately 1200 ppm of zinc and 1100 ppm phosphorus at the time of manufacture.)

The Shell Rimula brand is multi-national and comparable in all aspects, including the classification names. (i.e. T-5, T-6, Etc.)

lots to read here...  http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/  I use the Rotella "T" 15-40 in my engine..I had all the lifters out last year after 30,000 miles on my engine the lifters show no signs of convection and the lobes still look like new.. I do know you can buy a product from any Gm dealer and maybe an APC jobber called EOS I believe it is an zinc additive.. This question has beat to death with as different opinions as there are people..I can't use synthetic in my Cork Gasket engine because it leaks if I do.. Synthetic does not work well in cork engines..I am sticking with the Rotella..



__________________

There is no elevator to success — you have to take the stairs. 

 

 



Hamilton On Rod-side Member Amsoil Dealer

Status: Offline
Posts: 417
Date:
Permalink  
 

Very interesting read. I agree with you on using synthetic in cork gasket engines.....does not work.

__________________


Courtice On Rod-Side Member Pin Striper

Status: Offline
Posts: 700
Date:
Permalink  
 

What about those high mileage blends? Are those suitable for a gen1 sbc?

__________________


"Fatchuk" Rod-side member Board administration & clean up guy

Status: Offline
Posts: 1786
Date:
Permalink  
 

Nick: Those hi mileage blends are just fine for the newer cars they are designed for.. I am an Amsoil guy.. I use Amsoil products for everything I can. I run it in my transmissions, gear oil lubes, in all my daily driver stuff.. I have been an believer in there products for over 20 years.. there is no lube product better than Amsoil in my view and personal experience .. I have had pretty much every one of my shop customers sold on it for years..But I can't use it in my old Chev powered Ford it leaks like a sieve in engines that use cork gaskets..but all the newer engines use neoprene rubber gaskets.. I change oil and filter once a year..or 25,000 ks I have never in all that time ever had a engine failure and If I added all the miles and hrs  my customers have put on machinery It's more than a lifetime of use.. I have a customer with a fleet of gravel trucks and several pieces of equipment to operate a gravel pit ..He has never had any down time except for regular maintenance .. If your truck has cork gaskets ,stay away from synthetics  if your going to use a synthetic .. Find an Amsoil dealer or order direct from them..Thats my opinion for what it's worth.smile



__________________

There is no elevator to success — you have to take the stairs. 

 

 



Courtice On Rod-Side Member Pin Striper

Status: Offline
Posts: 700
Date:
Permalink  
 

I really don't see the need to use a synthetic. Not sure what the % they blend that stuff at , Can't be a high % of synthetic in it cause it's cheap oil. But maybe I'll just stick to regular conventional oil then. I was Just curious about the high mileage stuff.
thanks,


__________________


Chatham, ON Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 414
Date:
Permalink  
 

well chuk i mean no disrespect to you and your love of amsoil but i would put that stuff in a lawnmower engine years ago at the dealership i worked at they use my car for a demonstration of there oil product and how good it was and to make short of this it cost them a motor for my car and the big loss of selling that product in the area i am glad it works for you but i will never trust it ever
thanks bob

__________________


Hamilton On Rod-side Member Amsoil Dealer

Status: Offline
Posts: 417
Date:
Permalink  
 

Hard to believe Bob as I have been an Amsoil dealer for 3 years and so far mostly all success stories. It would be interesting to see why it failed. Had a Polaris snowmobile lose a motor and after we sent the pistons etc in to be analyzed it turned out to be detenation which they are known for. We were able to help him a little.

If anybody is interested in the Amsoil shoot me a PM and can help you out....

__________________


Chatham, ON Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 414
Date:
Permalink  
 

it was a long time ago in the mid 70ds and amsoil was on a big push to get there product out in the field so they were doing demonstrations all over all i know they made a fool out of it and cost them my motor in the process i am not here to bad mouth them just tell you what happened thanks bob

__________________


St.Thomas On Rod-side member

Status: Offline
Posts: 495
Date:
Permalink  
 

While we are a bit off track, I'll tell you about my 06 Dodge with a Cummins. After buying it, I started using Mobil 0W40 full synthetic oil, and sold it at about 90,000 miles. Changed the oil every 10,000 miles, and never had a minutes trouble. Also had a programmer, so I could change the tune on the fly. At max setting, it added 150 HP and 250 ftlb of torque. Loved that truck.

__________________

if you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk.



Bradford West Gwillimbury, On Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 13
Date:
Permalink  
 

Reduced Zinc in Oil Discussion. Several years ago I did the spring oil change, using off the shelf brand name Oil, on our '66 F85 w/330 V8. About 400 miles later it lost a cam lobe and was it firing up through the carb on moderate acceleration. I dug into why an Oldsmobile would have lost a cam lobe and learned plenty. IF you do NOT want to run a Zinc additive, OR, If you do NOT want to buy the CORRECT oil for Flat Tappet Engines then change to 20w50. 20W50 was NOT intended to be run in engines that run Catalytic Convertors. It has Higher Zinc levels. NO Vehicle came from the Factory with 20w50. Warm up the engine when you start it, before you drive away, even in hot weather. Keep it properly tuned, for quick starting, get the Oil Flowing asap. Many people are under the impression that simply switching to a Roller Cam & Lifter assy. will avoid the lobe failure problem. Not quite. Mercury Marine INSISTS that if you want engine warranty on their BBC Mercruiser engines you MUST run Mercruiser Engine Oil. Higher Zinc Levels. 
Just a quick thought, Where do those little pieces of cam lobe go when they leave the camshaft? Will that damage bearings, crankshafts, camshafts, rockers, distributors, oil pumps, timing chains, cylinder walls and pistons?
I am NOT a big fan of 20w50, however, for the sake of warming my engine for a couple of minutes before I drive away, it's a safe step. You can run Straight 10, or straight 20. Any straight weight Oil has high zinc content. No straight weight oil was ever run in an engine that runs Catalytic Convertors. IF you are NOT SURE about your OIL add a Zinc Additive. Kleenflo, STP(Grey Bottle), Lucas. I am NOT Familiar with Amsoil product line. I am sure Amsoil has something compatible. Ask.

the Kid




-- Edited by Gwillyville Kid on Sunday 10th of July 2016 04:39:17 PM



-- Edited by Gwillyville Kid on Sunday 10th of July 2016 05:25:08 PM

__________________

Have a Great Day!

Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.



Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard